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Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 18th, 2014, 11:00 pm
by Iambic Pentameter
Tonight there was a problem with a user going by "Monkey TF2 [A]" intentionally putting his tele entrance on the edge of the main (left) Blue spawn exit on the first map of Dustbowl. This required all members of the Blue team to jump over the tele if they wanted to exit spawn at that exit, or get on the tele itself. Many members of the team complained, including Doc, but the argument was that the user wasn't required to build a tele, and wasn't technically breaking the rules.

Engies have built teles on the angled edges of spawns in the past, with the mistaken (if I have been reading correct info) impression that this protects them somewhat from sapping or damage. From what I've read, this was the case in the past, but was nerfed in a previous update. As we are all aware, teles built on an upward angle require one to either go around or jump over them.

In this case, the engie was fully aware that this caused hardship to his teammates, and didn't care. In fact, this engie took the time to set his tele precisely in the center of the exit, leaving no room on either side to walk around it. I believe that this is borderline griefing, and certainly violates rule 7.

"7. Trolls - Troll engineers as well as other troll classes will not be tolerated. We want you to have fun, but you still need to help your team. "

His team was delayed in exiting through the main exit, and exiting through the other exits would add time to getting to the upper gated tunnel at the 2nd cap. He did this with the knowledge that this delay would occur, with no benefit to his gameplay or his teammates in doing so. It is one thing for an ignorant engie to do this inadvertently, it is another when the engie intentionally does it to annoy his teammates and hinder their gameplay.

The argument that there were ways to avoid the tele does not hold. There are ways to prevent backcapping, and flaming/liquids through the gate, but we have a rules against those things to ensure player enjoyment. I feel that intentionally building teles in locations that would slow down teammates violates the Trolling rule, as well as the spirit of the Skiver servers.


Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 18th, 2014, 11:40 pm
by oooo0000
I see no reason why anyone wants to build a tele so that u need to jump over it, it wastes a sec to jump over , seconds can be valuable when theres 30 secs left and ur almost capping.

I build my teles right next to spawn, but ppl never have to jump over it.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 3:25 am
by Johnny Wise
Building the teleporter entrance right at the spawn entrance makes it easier for the engineer to upgrade/repair his entrance without exposing himself to too much danger. Since nobody on the team ever protects an engineer in pubs, it makes them feel safer. Jumping over teleports is easy, and in fact causes you to lose no momentum whatsoever (due to the slight bunny hop that occurs). Monkey was also right that this makes the teleport harder to spam, since there is less surface of said teleport exposed. I should also point out that when members of our community wearing the SKVR tag do this, I hear no complaints. This should never have been an argument, since he was not intentionally blocking spawn entrances for his team and the solution was as simple as jumping over the entrance, which I'd encourage people to learn how to do anyway (jumping over entities helps with rocket and grenade surfing). Just my two cents on the matter. However, if he put the exit right next to the entrance or used it to block another exit to spawn, I'd call THAT griefing.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 4:05 am
by AnonyNoob
I'm with Johnny on this.

A: About a month or two ago, I intentionally played fucking terrible as engie as a thought experiment. Part of this included using a similar placement. I received no complaints of any sort, including about hindering placements.

B: From what I understand off of hearsay, the teleporter actually led somewhere good. If I wanted to be a troll as engie, the only spot I'd be putting that exit is further back or helping block. By this logic, since it led somewhere, he was in fact helping the team. Read the last sentence of rule 7 again.

C: Jumping over it when you're aware that it's required wastes, at worst, half a second. There are going to be VERY few situations where that amount of time is significant, especially if the exit actually led somewhere useful.

Not every engineer plays the same. That's what I love about the class. You get to experiment and see what works and what doesn't. You get to be pissy at your team when they do tiny things to ruin your plans (Like steal ammo crates pre-game you fuckers <_<), and rejoice when they defend properly enough that your gear gets to actually be useful. My point is there's ups and downs to the class, in more ways than one. Newbies are known to do dumb things, and engineer newbies are no exception. Maybe he was a newbie who read up on said tactic. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was a troll after all. Perhaps even he was just naive in how bad of a situation it was really causing (assuming it was as bad as you say). Whatever the case, I find that having an uproar over a teleporter placement that doesn't get you killed and is a hindrance for less than a second, only to save several more with its exit, is pretty silly.

Disclaimer: I was not there at the time. All information is based on personal experience and a teensy bit of hearsay.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 8:13 am
by Phaiz
Who am I to punish someone because their building annoys you? This is a no fly zone for me because it would open up too many different scenarios and allow blatant abuse. If an admin believes that an engie is placing buildings in a fashion that is purposefully trolling his team, they can take action at that time.

Also why is this under website suggestions..?

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 11:12 am
by monkey
So i play engie a little differently from other people.
I have been doing this since i started playing on skvr servers. Never received so much complaints and harrassment about that tele ever since last night.
Its not breaking any rules and infact i do that in all servers. I play every class differently to the ways i like to play.

I wasnt trolling anyone. The teleporter lead to the right place to help the team. IF they knew about it multiple times and kept complaining of it i honestly dont care cause all they have to do is crouch + jump over it. its not that hard. Its part of the basic rules of running away from an enemy or jumping to harder places to get it. Also there are 2 OTHER exits for that spawn.

The fact that the red team had multiple scouts and spies at that time and they couldnt find the entrance to destroy it i think i did a good job. My sentries and dispensers and exits were all helping the team.

I was even slayed by an admin trying to build a sentry to help the team - to take it that far was unnecessary.
I also admin for a unusual trading server community. I also am a head admin for BOOM gaming community. We also have pub servers and trading servers. Even if they dont know who i am in there they have never complained about it.

I also never did it to annoy my teammates. Sure i refused to move it.. Why? Cause who protects the engi when trying to build stuff. I leave it outside a bit more and someone comes by and kills me... then what. the whole team goes "HEY ENGIE WHERES THE F'ING TELE". I tend to build all my items at spawn. Putting them in spots where it will be difficult to destory or atleast try a bit harder.

Is it because im not a skvr member? That there are complains about me like this cause as what johnny said, other members have been doing the same but since im not a member I get the blame? For a community to survive you need new players not only members. I've owned my own community in the past and ran 8 servers my self. I welcomed all players even if sometimes their gameplay didnt meet my needs. What happened last night? A non skvr member joined the game as a engie. Tried helping the team by his own skill and ways to play engi. Because you dont like his play style you consistantly complain about it. Admins slay you over it. Admins threaten you about it. And say its not the "SKVR" Way. How are you welcoming new people to this community by doing that? What Makes you think most people are going to stay if that happens or even donate. For any community, DONATIONS keep the servers and community alive. Having members and new people coming in and playing makes the owners and admins greatly appreciated when they come in to play on their servers.

I honestly felt unwanted in that server during that time. But i stayed... YOU KNOW WHY? Cause I enjoy playing there and i had friends there with me as well. Be glad they even had a engi cause we did win and i was doing a great job. I even did it when i switched teams and wise was with me when i switched. Did the same EXACT THING. NO Complaints whatsoever.

Im sorry if you cant take a half second to jump over it. But as a engie, i do what i must to protect my equipment and better the team.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 1:45 pm
by Iambic Pentameter
Phaiz: I posted it here as it seemed more of a rule discussion than reporting a user, and I didn't see another section that might be more appropriate.

I was on Red team at the time of the initial complaints, and was autobalanced to Blue after some players rage-quit, which was when I saw the tele for myself.

While many engies have built teles in spawn doors, the exits from Blue spawn on the first map of Dustbowl are narrower than on the other two maps, so a single center-placed tele doesn't block the exit on those maps. This may be why the large number of complaints occurred during play last night, and not at other times. The refusal to move the tele even off to one side of that exit also likely had something to do with this.

I posted this here as there was a lot of loud complaining about the tele, which ended only after another player asked that the discussion happen outside of the game (and the rage-quitting of a few players). I'm certainly not looking for a rehash of every time a player happens to annoy his or her teammates, or adding rule after rule for every possible issue. But this seemed like more than just a nuisance, and was worth discussing.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 4:45 pm
by AnonyNoob
I maintain my stance regarding engineer play. Monkey also makes a good point about the result if the tele was destroyed.

For all the times they do stupid stuff to enrage us, Engies also take a lot of heat from their team, whether due to placement, or rather, the occasional lack of it (which is typically due to it not being well-defended). It's part of why we're such an angry bunch. I have threatened my team on more than one occasion with the ultimatum of "defend my gear or I won't be putting it up to defend".

In monkey's case, he builds in a position of better survivability. I say more power to him for it. A tele that takes a split second to jump over, that saves several more when taken, sounds like a perfectly OK tele to me.

Also, slaying him while he's building a sentry? Sounds like whichever admin was on at the time was the one being a hindrance to the team. If there's one surefire way to set us off, it's preventing us from building. Personally, I'd commend Monkey for his patience in such a situation. If I was a random and that happened to me, I would have ragequit the instant that happened and never looked back at the server.

There used to be a rule against pocket medics. Would you like us to bring that back while we're being silly? Because that's what I feel this is. This entire discussion is silly and unecessary, in my opinion.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 5:00 pm
by Phaiz
Feel free to continue discussing this if you want, if you can be civil, but at this time there will be no changes to the rule or any action against Monkey.

Re: Teles in the doorways

PostPosted: October 19th, 2014, 7:46 pm
by Bwainz
My opinion on the matter is the same as Anony and Monkey. If I was a random, and saw that happen/happen to me I would leave the server and blacklist all the servers that community runs. You don't mess with an engie building, unless you don't want to have an engie on the team.